Dr. Julie de Azevedo Hanks is a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, and coach with over 28 years experience specializing in women’s emotional health and relationships. She is the founder and director of Wasatch Family Therapy, an outpatient therapy clinic in Cottonwood Heights and Bountiful, UT, and serves as an assistant professor of social work at Utah Valley University. In addition to authoring two books, The Burnout Cure and The Assertiveness Guide for Women, Dr. Hanks is a blogger on Latter-day Saint Cultural issues, a speaker, a local and national media contributor, an online influencer, a private practice consultant, and an award-winning performing songwriter. A native Californian, Hanks currently lives with her family in Sandy, UT. For additional resources visit DrJulieHanks.com or connect with @drjuliehanks on social media.
Watch Dr. Hanks’ TedX Ogden Talk “The Costs of Idealizing Motherhood” here https://youtu.be/XlC8XqTSLUE
Richie T. 0:23
It’s time for another episode of the cultural holiday. It’s episode number 375. We are going to jump in to our conversation with Dr. Julie Hanks. Now, as we talk you’re thinking, Oh man, I need more Dr. Julie Hanks. We will give you the address at the end. But I want to just make sure that we give it at the beginning too, because you may be like I need to research more into this and find out more what she’s talking about. It’s Drjuliehanks.com and you can find her on all social media at Dr. Julie Hanks. My guest Dr. Julie Hanks, thanks for being here. Now. We’re going to Get into the cost of idealizing motherhood and I, I wish for you to give me a brief definition of what idealizing motherhood is. Looks like, sounds like.
Dr. Julie Hanks 1:14
Yeah, I think. So idealizing motherhood is painting a picture that is better than reality and kind of pedestal it or placing it above other things. And it’s not saying it’s not valuable, but idealizing is different than valuing. So we kind of there’s a stay at home mother ideal. That is fairly recent, but we kind of in the LDS Church think that it’s kind of an eternal principle and it’s really kind of just a recent cultural phenomenon. So women have always worked on farms that contributed to the family economy. So anyway, so idealizing motherhood is kind of painting a picture That motherhood is the most the best, the most important kind of painting a picture that’s better than reality. And so it’s, and I think I understand why people do that and why we do it in the church. It’s to try and value it, but it actually doesn’t work that way. It sets women up for a lot of issues.
Richie T. 2:25
So So, so what kind of issues does it set women up for? Let’s go that way and then I want to come back and, and, and catch the other side of it.
Dr. Julie Hanks 2:35
Okay. So it sets women up for feeling bad about themselves, because they can’t live up to this ideal model that has been presented. It sets young women up for disappointment when they that money.
Dr. Julie Hanks 3:01
A lot of it is really, really hard. And so if you paint an idealized picture of caring and nurturing children and or running a household or those kind of things, you know, it’s just not that way. So a lot of depression, lots of disappointment, unmet expectations. And part of the ideal is kind of this sacrificial martyr mother. And so that that creates problems because if the ideal mother sacrifices everything for her children, her children, then there’s not really anything left for her life for maybe her marriage or other things interests that she has. So lots of problems.
Richie T. 3:41
So So what role that this is obviously I feel like breaking it breaking them pretty basic, but what role then do you feel like the church plays in this idealizing?
Dr. Julie Hanks 3:53
So what the church plays the role of continuing to perpetuate the Ideal where the rest of Western culture, you know to employed parents is the norm. People don’t generally feel guilty for having childcare or have someone else care for their child. So the stay at home mom as the ideal is still really focused on by the church. And I think and the leaders will say it you know, women it’s your highest calling it’s you can find the most joy and satisfaction in motherhood. So those kind of things are constantly said over the pulpit and you know, what if you don’t find your joy in it? what if? What if you are what if you find joy in other things, too? Where does that leave you? And so, it’s kind of placing motherhood above everything else that creates the problems.
Richie T. 4:54
Some of those things I think are sad or vocalized because People people would say that, that you what am I trying to say here like that they would focus on successes for women without without the home. So we try and overcompensate by saying, Oh man, the successes within the home, how glorious, how fantastic are these things? And that plays into the issue as well.
Dr. Julie Hanks 5:27
Right, right. I think it’s a reaction to, to kind of the focus on other things that that kind of Western culture, you know, materialism and, and kind of getting ahead, those kind of things. But it’s also I think a response to the devaluation of caregiving in general. So the lowest paid jobs tend to be those that are directly caring for other human beings. elder care workers, daycare workers, teachers, right, so people who spend the most time with humans beings get paid pretty poorly. Just that’s an example of how we don’t value caregiving. So just saying, Oh, we value this we value caregiving, or motherhood is the highest calling. It still doesn’t value caregiving. If that makes sense, it’s an attempt to but it doesn’t do it. It doesn’t quite do it, and it creates more problems. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. No, I think I’m going to answer the question you’re gonna ask. So ask the question.
Richie T. 6:32
You’re like, I got this, trust me, we’re going there. So so how do we this then honor, whether we want to call it you know, the words that are shared from the family proclamation within the church or the words that the prophets have spoke from general conferences or have shared in those things? How do we both honor what we feel like they’re saying, which is hey, this is this is this divine role and also on the other side, Not limit, or devalue, whatever those roles are, how can they live in harmony? Or can they?
Dr. Julie Hanks 7:08
Yeah, I think they can. And I think my hope is to say parenting is an important job to not exclude motherhood. In our Western culture, we value anything associated with masculinity more than that we value femininity. Men are generally paid more. They have higher positions in society. That it just it’s just kind of what we’ve inherited. And so if you if you frame something as only a women’s issue, then men don’t
Richie T. 7:43
well we don’t care because it has it’s a women’s issue, not a man’s issue. Yeah,
Dr. Julie Hanks 7:46
Right. It’s really a human issue. So saying parenting, isn’t import.. It’s important to take care of your children, parents. I think that is goes along with the family Proclamation. It doesn’t go against it. And it when you include men in it, it actually increases the value of that activity. So if we say parenting, which is men and women together, it increases the value of parenting, by framing it differently.
Richie T. 8:20
Is it is it as simple as just including the men in what we would say is a bleep bleep. You can’t see my air quotes. women’s issue is that or is that just the simple first step that we can take?
Dr. Julie Hanks 8:33
That’s a step, I think is is Zach. Because in idealizing, motherhood, one of the one of the results is the devaluation or kind of pushing aside fatherhood, when motherhood is so important. It’s like, well, we don’t hear that about fatherhood, why not? Why don’t we hear that about fatherhood? And, you know, it kind of puts it to the side so fatherhood is really important. I think that’s a first step in in the conversation. I know, that lm elevating fatherhood.
Richie T. 9:08
I know that you won’t necessarily know this answer. But I would be curious as to your speculation, why don’t we elevate fatherhood?
Dr. Julie Hanks 9:16
Oh, gosh, that’s,
Richie T. 9:18
that’s a different TED Talk. And that will be
Dr. Julie Hanks 9:22
because there’s, because we’ve elevated motherhood so much. We tend to associate parenting with women instead of men. We tend to view men not as caregivers, we tend to, you know, they’re their providers are protectors there. We don’t associate men with hands on caregiving. But the research shows that younger millennial dads really want to be hands on parents. Yeah. And so we’re kind of seeing the shift that I think is in, you know, very encouraging. But I think those are some of the reasons. I think in the Church particularly we focus on priesthood more than we focus on fatherhood. And I don’t think we need to separate those things, I think I think we need to talk more about fatherhood and and caregiving and direct not just leading for men, but also nurturing and and direct caregiving. And the words nurture and provide, I think, are interchangeable. mean when I go to work, that’s nurturing my family. In addition to providing right? I’m providing something that is nurturing food, shelter, or when my husband does same thing. So providing and nurturing I think we need to talk about as, as you know, the same thing. And providing is also providing a home for your family providing food, making the food that’s providing too so Why do we have to separate it into men do this, women do this?
Richie T. 11:03
It’s an interesting discussion from, you know, if we if we study scriptures, we know, or at least I guess we have faith that specific words are given for specific reasons. So, I mean, it could be interchangeable. And I think that those would that would be I don’t, I think the word opponents might be too abrasive, but people that were maybe, yeah, opposed to what you’re saying or in non agreement with what you’re saying is that, you know, that they’re very much is a difference between providing and nurturing. And although I think we would be ill to make a generalized sweeping statement of women are nurturers and men are providers. You know, that the thing that I’ve always been taught, whether it be from the pulpit or for from, you know, documents reading within the churches that that women are more apt to nurture and men are far You know, we Are the gatherers and the women then they take the things that we’ve gathered and they provide it or prepare it and, and do that. Is that is that just a sort of instructing ourselves so that we don’t deviate from the way that we’ve always done? Or can there be a meeting in the middle of providing and nurturing as you suggest?
Dr. Julie Hanks 12:20
Well, I, I think there can be I mean, there is in my house, we both nurture and we both provide, and that’s how we worked it out. And I think I think there is something innate to rain bearing and raising children or just being the primary caregiver. But I think a lot of it is is learned, we give girls dolls, we give them household, you know, toys. We give… We don’t train men to be sensitive to be aware of other people’s needs as much we teach them to be independent to be strong. And I think we can teach Both things to both, you know, to all the genders. So I think we don’t have to just teach girls how to be nurturing. I have really, I’m married to a very nurturing man and I have two very nurturing sons. So I don’t you know, when people like Oh, he’s all boy, my gosh, I have really sensitive sons. But I’ve also made a point to, they had dolls when they were growing up, they did babysit they, they had opportunities to see themselves in that way. So it’s so complex, you know, but my hope is that that we can get less rigid about providing and nurturing and have a lot more overlap. And personal revelation comes in at this, like we, we hear about, you know, gender roles, but we also hear about personal revelation. And so how that’s going to look can be really different depending on the family.
Richie T. 14:03
I want to take a break for a quick second when I come back in the in the second block I want to talk about that personal revelation that can help guide us as we look at at the cost of idealizing motherhood. We’ll do that coming back in the second block of the cultural Hall.
Here in the second block of the culture Hall you love what you hear you want to be a supporter of the cultural Hall, hop on to patreon.com then do a forward slash then put cultural Hall and you can help by it’s like a pledge. Think of us like your favorite local public radio station, and you’re doing a little monthly pledge to help this thing continue. It’s as little as three bucks a month, which I did the math. It’s like 33 cents an episode. So you could do that. I feel like you do Netflix. You could do that. Check it out. It’s patreon.com/theculturalhall. Remember that if you decide to become a Patreon subscriber of the cultural Hall, you get to be a part of the Sacred not secret Facebook group that we have developed for those people. So thank you in advance to everyone who does that. The cost of idealizing motherhood and personal revelation? How did those intertwine?
Dr. Julie Hanks 16:14
Well, we’re talking talking about gender roles and I prefer the word stewardship role. Okay? Because stewardship implies responsibility for but not dictating how that is done. is kind of a, you know, a script.
Richie T. 16:31
Yeah, a list of responsibilities that these are the, these are the roles. Exactly
Dr. Julie Hanks 16:36
right. Right. And so I think that personal responsibility is key in people kind of figuring out how they want to do motherhood, how they want to do fatherhood, what that’s going to look like in their family.
Richie T. 16:51
So how does that work then? If you don’t mind and hopefully I would think that you probably would not mind how does that work for you for your household, you are a I don’t even want to give labels because I feel like any labels here are almost like land mines a little bit, right. But you are a professional woman who works in academia, but you also are very much a wife and very much a mother to the children and everything that encompasses all of that. So. So how has that personal revelation worked for you, your family and your home?
Dr. Julie Hanks 17:30
For me personally, I knew early on that I wanted a career. And I actually wanted two careers singer songwriter, and I wanted to be a therapist. And I felt really strongly that that my heavenly parents were involved in kind of my desires and that they were good. And so I chose to follow personal revelation in the late 80s when when church leaders were really Coming down on working moms and, you know, saying you should stay home and really focusing on that. And so I kind of had to weigh what was being said, with my personal revelation. And I chose to continue my schooling and go to grad school and open a practice and also do do my music singer songwriter stuff and have a family. So for me, the answer was, and this and that, and that and that. It wasn’t either or. And also, that’s where it led me.
Richie T. 18:34
And also, on some level God was like, and don’t ever plan on sleeping because there’s not time for that.
Dr. Julie Hanks 18:42
So the funny thing is, I get more sleep than anyone I know. Hmm. Good for you. Good for you. I’m productive, but I’m not stressed out and I get I need a lot of sleep. But But I haven’t always got you know, there were some like what sleepless nights Babies and stuff. But yeah, and so. So that’s how it looked for us and my husband has, because I was touring. When we had our first batch of kids, we had two batches. He was really involved. At times, he’s had flexible work, you know, work situations, other times less flexible. So we’ve just kind of hammered it out together. And there’s been a lot of fluidity and how we’ve developed, you know, through the years
Richie T. 19:32
Have there been times over the years where you’ve had to go back to all right, I gotta remember that this, that I felt like this was that personal revelation or times where folks had cast shade on you to use a term that the kids are using to say that, yeah, yeah, those kids these days, but you know, that had thrown some shame or some shade on you. That would be like, oh, Well, okay, Julie, you do it that way. But we all we all sort of know how God wants us to do it. And if you want to do it different, that’s fine. But, you know we wink wink.
Dr. Julie Hanks 20:11
Yeah, I struggled with a lot of shame and I’ve called it aspirational shame. And I wrote a blog post about it. And so it’s kind of this term that I’ve used to describe it. So shame about aspirations outside of home and family as an LDS woman. And so I did have, I don’t feel it anymore. I did feel it for a long time and have have worked through quite a bit of it. And then I’ve ended up researching that idea of aspirational shame in LDS women. So it’s been kind of fun just to, to know, like, Oh, I’m not the only one. There are a lot of people. 70% of the women that I’ve surveyed, have experienced, aspirational shame. So and that’s just shame for wanting things outside of home and family.
Richie T. 21:01
Yeah, not even necessarily doing it just wanting the thing outside.
Dr. Julie Hanks 21:05
Right. So thinking that you’re a bad person because you want, you want something. And that’s just too much shame and too many people feeling shame. And that’s a cost of idealizing motherhood is feeling bad for wanting things outside of motherhood.
Richie T. 21:22
There’s a certain element of this, that I think it is worth pointing out that it’s is it more culture within the church? Or would you say that there is? Is it dogma within the church? Or would you go as far as to say that it’s doctrine within the church that that creates this? This shame? Or these are these feelings because to me, the god I know, and I always love it when people are when people start the sentence, the god i know but the god I know. Yeah, exactly. You know, wants people To be happy, does not want them to feel shame wants them to, to rise to their fullest potential to the, you know, the things that he made them or you know me for. So I have a hard time thinking that it would be doctrinal. So maybe I just assert that it’s it’s this great mix of grossness that we’ve mixed up within the, the church’s culture. What do you think?
Dr. Julie Hanks 22:28
Oh, I think you can make a case for either one. Yeah. Or a mixture of the two. I tend to think that its cultural. I mean, idea. The idealization of the stay at home mom is cultural. Eve wasn’t a stay at home mom. There was no such thing. Everybody worked to survive. Right, right. So it can’t be an eternal principle because through most of history, right men, women work provide for their families in in one way or another. So, you know, the Industrial Revolution change that were work. It’s not the problem isn’t that women have left the home to go to work? It’s the problem is that work left the home, so fathers had to leave the home, and mothers had to leave the home. So anyway, soapbox there.
Where was I going?
Richie T. 23:21
Well, just to catch it just a quick to talk about that. Yeah. And we’ll come back to Dr. In a culture but it is an interesting thing than that. Maybe the reason why we see this coming kind of coming on the other side of the bell or swinging back in the same direction is that more jobs are coming back home? I don’t know.
Dr. Julie Hanks 23:40
Yeah. Well, I think the internet is a great invention. I mean, it’s allowed me to work from home, run my business from home, teach online partially, you know, there. There’s a lot of flexibility given to families. I think it’s a really great tool. Really great tool. That back to back to the doctrine and culture. I believe my God doesn’t want us to feel shame. Yeah. And wants us to reach our potential. So I think we’re, we’re on the same page that way. And so a lot of the triggers of the shame are relational
Richie T. 24:16
are leading the way that we interact with other members of the church or people that are not in the church with us, or family on that stuff.
Dr. Julie Hanks 24:23
Right, right. husband’s not being supportive of their wife’s aspirations or mothers. This is a big one mothers criticizing your kids do, you know, they’re with a nanny? How can you be away from your children? You know, just kind of the the questions that have underlying criticisms. I didn’t I didn’t do it this way. I don’t think you should do it this way. questions from people at church? You know, no one asks, my husband who’s watching the kids, right? Ever. Yeah, like well who’s watching the kids while you go to work? no one. So just those questions often can elicit shame. And then then the lessons too…
Richie T. 25:11
So when we’re talking the lessons you’re saying, like the, the lessons prepared by curriculum within the church sort of denote that, that shame in some way
Dr. Julie Hanks 25:21
in conference talks and things like that, you know, just quoting quotes from the brethren can sometimes elicit shame. It’s like, Well, I’m not finding joy in motherhood. It doesn’t or we haven’t even talked about this, what that idealization of motherhood does to single women who or childless or child free women, saying you’re not reaching your highest potential. I mean, how do you feel good about yourself if you’re getting that message,
Richie T. 25:53
so so let’s split that question in half, one What, what or how? within the church? And I feel like I know the answer, but I just want to have the discussion around it. But what or how can those women who don’t have kids or who are not married? How can they find a place within the church? But then also coming on the other side of it? How can we hear those messages from the brethren read those things within the curriculum that we’re asked to discuss and to study within the church and and get a non shame promoting idea from all of that so you can pick which one but I want both of those questions answered, young lady.
Dr. Julie Hanks 26:39
Okay, I feel like I need to write those down and revoke the really good. So okay, how we need to change the messaging from motherhood is the most the best that because it ranks it, right. So then if you’re a single woman who’s a heart surgeon, you’re never enough,
Richie T. 26:57
your second your second best. That’s the rank
Dr. Julie Hanks 27:00
So saying, this is really parenting is really important. I think that is a valuable message. It doesn’t put anyone else below that. Right? And and you can say being a heart surgeon is important and being a teacher isn’t. Everybody is contributing to building the kingdom and to their communities. And why do we have to say one is more important or the most important? And I think if we get rid of that message that allows for everyone’s contributions to be valuable and important, and every person to be there, you know, to be valuable and important. So that’s part was that part one of your question?
Richie T. 27:43
before we get to part two, do you think that the idea of tiers of heaven up are are to blame, at least in part within our culture that we go? Well, there’s a first best that’s celestial, and then there’s like, you know, there’s like a second best And that’s your terrestrial, and then well, telestial, it’s better than nothing sort of idea within the church does that where it comes from? Or am I just trying to assert something that isn’t there.
Dr. Julie Hanks 28:10
Um, I haven’t made that connection. But I think whenever you rank something as better than, then the people are less than. And I tend to think of things as a plane with instead of a ladder, as a field instead of a ladder. So, if we think about a field, you know, baseball, for example, like every position is important and plays a different role in that game and on that team and, and so it’s kind of like that, instead of rungs on a ladder where like, I am above you, you’re below me, you’re so that ranking is where we get in trouble. And I think that brings a lot of shame to. So if we stop saying the best the most and just say valuable So idealizing is painting a picture that’s better than reality. valuing is saying something is an important contribution. So let’s value motherhood, let’s value parenthood and not kind of put it above or better than other things.
Richie T. 29:19
So give us a roadway a path, if you will. This is the second question. When we hear these things within curriculum or spoken from the pulpit, whether it be from General Conference or within our own word, that would be to say, there is a best there is a good there is a better you know, how, how do we take what we’re being told and not miss the mark by assigning that, that idealization of one thing over another?
Dr. Julie Hanks 29:51
I think by by speaking up and by being truthful about motherhood experiences, I think that’s really pretty Powerful. So one of the ways to reduce shame is to talk about it. So, if there is a lesson that that is idealizing a certain way to be a mother to, you know, raise your hand and say, Look, I do it differently. And this is how I feel inspired. And so kind of speaking up or saying, you know, right now, it’s a really miserable time as a mom, I’m in a lot of pain. I’ve never been in this much pain before. And so kind of painting a more realistic picture. I think is is really important. I think asking questions, saying, you know, as I’m sitting here hearing this lesson, I’m wondering how this lands on single women or women who are married who don’t have children, or women, you know, who struggle with infertility. I wonder how this is landing on and just kind of get people thinking about groups that may not fit kind of The ideal and what what painting this picture means for them.
Richie T. 31:05
I want to take a break real quick, I think that’s a natural spot to separate for just a second when we come back, I want you to speak to those who find themselves struggling because of this issue within the church and also to those who may have in fact left or you know, be on the fringes of leaving, be able to speak to them and to share whether it be a message of hope, or or whatever those things may be. We’ll come back and we’ll do that in the third block of the cultural Hall.
here on the third block of the cultural Hall, it is very important that we make time for this. Before we we go into it though I want to remind everyone you can find us on social media at the cultural Hall in all the places. And if you ever want to email us, you can email us contact at the cultural hub calm or all social media has a way that you can do some sort of direct message. We would love to hear from you if you like what you’re hearing. If you want to say Julie Hanks is up in the night, I’d love to hear about it. And then maybe we have you talked to us about it. Or we can bring back Dr. hangsen and have her answer for her high crimes here in the cultural Hall. All those things are welcomed and accepted as we feel here in the cultural hub. This is an opportunity to have a discussion about all things without within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So to the Women who find themselves either not able to, or really struggling to be able to find their place within the church, those being single women or childless women, or they just don’t enjoy being a mom and they feel like every lesson in Sunday is about how this should be the greatest joy to those in all of those things that are struggling. What say you?
Dr. Julie Hanks 34:24
I say you are not alone in your struggle.
And the picture that’s painted is idealized, it’s not real. And it’s okay to struggle that we all everyone struggles with, with life, with motherhood, with relationships, whatever it is. We’re kind of in this together.
Richie T. 34:47
So so how can I go on? I don’t feel like I can go on anymore. Julie, how do I how do I do this? How do I go through the doors one more time, man. If I hear one more lesson about insert whatever That that line or that subject or that thing may be, what do I do?
Dr. Julie Hanks 35:04
Yeah, um, you know, it just reminds me of something I posted on social media a few weeks ago. It’s okay to have mixed feelings about the church and still participate. So a lot of times I mean people know that it’s okay to not participate in a lot of people are choosing that route. But I I wanted to give people permission like if you’re struggling with something it’s okay to continue to go and and struggle with it and talk to people about it and get support. So one of the I talked about motherhood and kind of the realities a lot on social media. So I would say, you know, connect with me find a tribe of other women who are in your same situation who are LDS that that community is so so healing and so important to feel like you’re not, you’re not alone.
Richie T. 35:56
remind people again, where they can find you online, both with your your blogs, messed up but also with social media.
Dr. Julie Hanks 36:02
Yeah. Dr. Julie Hanks calm. And then at Dr. Julie Hanks on all social media and on social media and and do you have a podcast yet that people can just see
how, you know a lot of people have asked me that recently. And now the thoughts occurred to me
Richie T. 36:21
a little a little behind the scenes with Dr. Hanks and I, How many years has it been probably two, two, maybe three years. I feel like what you have to say, especially in this space is so valuable that having that additional outlet, which obviously means more work for you. But to be able to have that in that space to be able to share the message that you share so powerfully and succinctly. You know, who knows, maybe maybe I’ll talk maybe 2020 is my year to talk you into it. But you can see you can definitely find her on her website, and also All the social medias? Is there anything within this this conversation that you feel like we are, that we are missing that we haven’t put voice to that that we need to share before we close?
Dr. Julie Hanks 37:12
Yes a couple of things.
The idea that motherhood is a relationship with another human being, it’s not a role. motherhood is a relationship, how you do that relationship is going to look differently. And that’s okay or whether you do it or not, that’s okay. It’s a relationship. And if we focus on the relationship, we don’t get a division between the kind of Mom You are a stay at home mom or this or not a mom or you are a mom, it’s about relationships. And, and that’s kind of what the whole gospel plan is about is about building relationships. And so getting away from the role and thinking about it as a relationship I think is really helpful. And then Another cost that we haven’t talked about is when we idealize motherhood, we tend to collapse womanhood with motherhood. And they’re not the same thing. Not all women are mothers, not all women want to be mothers, not all women have the opportunity. And so to see women as individuals, not roles, I think is so important. We tend to kind of want to put people in boxes, but we’re all unique. We all have a unique path. And, and that’s our job to figure out through personal revelation, what that path is and what it’s going to look like. And it’s okay if it looks different from other people.
Richie T. 38:38
Some of what you’ve spoken about is how women do that to other women. You know, put them in that box in those things, but and then also that solutions can be that, you know, women can be vulnerable and share Hey, you know what, I do struggle with this or Hey, you know, I disagree with what you’re saying. For the men that are listening that really, you know, maybe They don’t feel like
like they can help in this situation, what can men do to be able to help this?
Dr. Julie Hanks 39:10
I think men can see the work that women are doing in your lives and value it. I think a lot of what women do is unseen. And it’s it’s not value,
Richie T. 39:22
how do we how do we better value it?
Dr. Julie Hanks 39:26
By? I mean, I think seeing it and valuing it go together, right? You’ve and you value it by participating in it. So it’s one thing to be like, Oh, thanks so much for taking such good care of the kids. It’s another thing to be like, hey, let me take the kid. I’m taking the kids to the park or it’s, you know, like, I think if men really valued the work that women are doing, they would be dying to do that work and why aren’t they? Like, if you really valued be like, no, let me make dinner tonight or whatever. Whatever it is. That That, you know, the task is are you’d be jumping at the chance to do it. If you valued it.
Richie T. 40:08
Yeah, in the same way maybe that like if we look at valuation of jobs like all of us jump at the jobs that are going to pay millions of dollars if we think we can do them, right. So if they really if they really are and again, air quotes, as valuable as we deem them, why would we not want the blessing they increased relationship with our children, all of those things? Why would men not want that if they are in fact that valuable? I like that. I like I like where that I like the space where that comes from? that that’s something that resonates with me in a way that maybe for me, it’s more than words, right? It’s more than Hey, great.
Dr. Julie Hanks 40:48
It’s much more than, oh, I really value what you’re doing. It’s it’s seeing the specifics of what what women are are offering seeing Behind the scenes, and then doing it, you know, a lot of invisible labor, and mental and emotional labor is done by women. And it’s invisible. And so start seeing that and start doing more of it.
Richie T. 41:15
We ask everyone who steps into culture Hall three questions. you’ve answered them before, but maybe there’s an update. And maybe you don’t remember that I asked you them, but that’s fine.
Dr. Julie Hanks 41:23
Remember what they are? That’s
Richie T. 41:25
fine. A couple of them are pretty soft Bali questions. And then the last one is the one we’ll get to, obviously at the very end, because it’s the last one. The first question is, is do you have a calling right now and if so, what is it?
Dr. Julie Hanks 41:38
I am second counselor in the Relief Society presidency in the ward? I like it.
Richie T. 41:45
How do you like it
A lot of work, right?
Dr. Julie Hanks 41:48
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s, uh, but, but not too much.
Richie T. 41:52
Yeah. I am your counterpart in the elders quorum in my word. We’re not in the same word, but being a second Council and the elders quorum and I can do Say, man, it’s more than I ever thought and props to everyone who serves in the presidency anywhere. Please bless that the presidency gets removed soon, so I don’t have to keep doing it.
Dr. Julie Hanks 42:12
I guess my other calling is bishops wife.
Richie T. 42:14
Oh, your husband’s a bishop.
Dr. Julie Hanks 42:16
Yes. So I feel like that’s a big responsibility for you know, being supportive
Richie T. 42:25
for sure. The second calling is if you could pick a calling for yourself either one that exists or make one up what would you pick?
Dr. Julie Hanks 42:32
You know, it was it used to be my I hope I never get that calling and then I got that calling and now it’s my favorite. And that was gospel doctrine teacher. I, I really loved that calling. And I was very surprised because I was like, No, no, never. I don’t want to do that. But I A few years ago, I had that calling and, and really, really learned a lot was really valuable.
Richie T. 42:59
Awesome, though. Last question that we ask everyone is what is your favorite part of your faith?
Dr. Julie Hanks 43:05
My favorite part of my faith, I think we’ve already talked about it is personal revelation, having a personal relationship with my heavenly parents, and feeling like, I get customized guidance and light and knowledge and insight into my own path. I just think that it’s really, really cool.
Richie T. 43:30
That that we have that. It’s pretty cool. And it’s something that I don’t think within the church that we share enough. It’s pretty unique. When you compare that to doctrines of other churches to be able to say, Hey, we feel like we have a literal connection with God to tell us how we should be leading our specific lives. I mean, I get why we preach the Book of Mormon to people and why you know the idea of a Living prophet is so unique and profound and I’m not downplaying either of those things. But, but maybe a third or fourth should be very much that we we feel like we can receive that that revelation from God for us, for our family for our homes.
Dr. Julie Hanks 44:18
Yeah. And be guide. It’s not just top down. It’s not just and I think often we think about revelation as the Prophet giving revelation, but revelations happening all over and you know, every for your colleagues for whatever your stewardship is. And I just think that’s a really great part of the plan.
Richie T. 44:41
Absolutely. We hope that this episode is nourish and strengthen your body that if you’re not healthy enough to listen this week that you’ll be healthy enough to listen next week, and that when the time comes, you’ll be able to travel home in safety. In the meantime, we’ll be saving a seat for you on the back row of the cultural Hall.
Hey, are you still there? Are you still listening? It’s a little bit of a message after, you listened all the way to the end. And now you get this little easter egg. I’m coming in here to let you know that we have a Facebook group. Now, for all of you who listened to the cultural Hall. This isn’t the Patreon group, it’s something else entirely. You can find the cultural Hall back row. It is a Facebook group that you have to ask to be a part of you don’t have to pay to be a part of though I wouldn’t turn down your money. You can just ask to be a part of it. And we talked about talk about each episode. We’d love to get your input. If you found something to be fascinating, something you’ve never heard before. You want to go down the rabbit hole with one of the offhanded comments that we did. That’s fine. All those things totally permissible, and what that group is all about. I gotta get going, but find the cultural Hall back row. It’s a Facebook group, obviously on Facebook. And guess what? I’ll add you. you just hit Have to request it. I’m not gonna make ya. That whole agency thing.
Transcribed by Blake Weller
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