That was the title I suggested to my wife for her talk in sacrament meeting tomorrow. After reading that a graduate of BYU’s law school approved of the “torture memo”, it seems to me that we could benefit from being reminded that Jesus said to turn the other cheek.
What do you think? Should we change the words to the Primary song from “Jesus Wants me for a Sunbeam” to “Jesus Loves Waterboarding”? I don’t remember… was it in the Sermon on the Mount that Jesus approved of physical pain as long as it wasn’t “equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death.”
Sigh. What a world we live in.
Well, and what does it say about our definition of “moral” if the missionary calendar guy is excommunicated, but, at least as far as I know, Bybee’s church leaders have not called him in at all?
Actually, to clarify, I’m not in favor of excommunication for anyone…. but the irony here appears rather rich.
I need to finish “Club Gitmo — The Musical”
I’ve got the waterboarding and the Chinese Ughyr sequence finished, now I need to work in the Sunbeam song, probably with the kid they had who played basketball with them until they were able to send him home.
As an attorney who has argued in favor of releasing murderers and bank robbers as part of my ethical duty to my clients, I can attest that analyzing the law and coming to a given conclusion does not necessarily mean that you personally agree with the position or that you support it.
Judge Bybee wrote it in an official capacity. Had he encorporated elements of his religious belief into it, I’m sure that someone would have raised a complaint of impermissibly mixing state and religion.
dpc, do you think that his religious belief would have moderated the memo? Has he written anything that enlightens us about his personal views? I’d love to know that he personally abhors mistreatment of others, and that he felt somehow ethically obliged to sign the memo.
Michael,
Jay Bybee does not personally condone torture; he interpreted the law, or rather agreed with the interpretation of a subordinate.
Jay taught my son when he was a priest (about 15 years ago) and I couldn’t have wished for a better teacher for a young man full of questions and not about to swallow the “party line.” Jay Bybee and his family have my greatest admiration. I’ve been an overnight guest in their home several times both in D.C. and in Vegas. They are generous beyond belief with their time and talents. They are well-liked wherever they have lived and I know that they are genuine people. When you’re up at midnight baking Christmas cookies with kids running around, you get to know people very intimately.
I’ve had at least one conversation with Jay regarding the famous memo and know that he feels he was doing his job. There are also other issues regarding the timing of the memo and what it was addressing when it was penned vs. when it was used but don’t recall the details. Basically, I think the memo was used to justify actions at a later date and it had not been written for that purpose.
I hope that helps.
to me this memo is abysmal, and it is yet one more reason why i am glad i left the church and now go to a church that encourages me to let my moral and religious beliefs guide how i interact with the world. i honestly don’t care how wonderful a man jay bybee is - if his personal beliefs are that torture is wrong then he should have refused to write the memo. further, it is my belief that another judge could have interpreted the law differently to what judge bybee did - that another judge who isn’t about towing the party line would not have allowed such a memo to be written in her or his name.
the lds church does not encourage people to think for themselves, in my opinion. i met with my then bishop back in january and talked about my views on peace and justice and he told me that i would need to change my views to belong in the lds church. now, i live in utah and a bishop outside of utah may have actually embraced my strong roots in peace and justice, i will say that. but having strong roots in peace and social justice is not encouraged by either the brethern or the culture of the lds church. to say oppositely is to not be paying attention to the actions of the leaders of the church. i believe that bybee was acting completely inline with what he has been taught in the church, and further he probably doesn’t have strong issues with the memo. if he did have issues with it he would have said something - or at least i would hope he would say something.
friend of jay bybee. i want to point out that someone can be as nice as nice can be and still be a murderer, a totalitarian leader, a war criminal, etc. there are all sorts of stories of people who commit crimes against humanity being the nicest people one on one and having loving families.
I realize that, Brooke, but I know otherwise. I know Hitler could be very sweet with some children. As far as peace and justice, you have the right to your opinion as to what they are and how they should be achieved, and others may have an equally valid view that differs from yours.
I think Mike’s point is well-taken: If Jay Bybee had moral qualms with this issue, he would have or SHOULD have said something. Look, I’m all for doing your job and mindlessly signing things that are relatively unimportant. I also can understand something like: writing a scholarly paper with a theoretical framework that you don’t necessarily agree with 100% just to get it published. It may be a little internally inconsistent and borderline immoral (the means may not quite justify the ends), but no one is going to die or suffer as a result. But “mindlessly” signing something that can lead to the suffering of one person, let alone thousands, is immoral. However, if you have no problem with torture, if THOSE means justify THOSE ends in your moral system, then this isn’t mindless at all but open avocation of torture.
I guess the key question here is: Does Jay Bybee regret having signed off on the torture memo? If yes, good. If not, well, either there is something wrong with Jay Bybee or there is something wrong with the moral system he adheres to.
I would love to see the Church be just or more so well known for being a people of level-headed peace activists as they are for having great law and business schools.
Actually friend of Jay Bybee - my non-namby pamby liberal belief - which goes against all my beliefs about pacifism - is that there isn’t a perspective about achieving world peace other than to put down all forms of violence and start talking. the Dalai Lama is admired because of his dedication to non-violence, Gandhi, Dr. King - all dedicated to non-violence. at some point people like me have to say to people who believe in war that they are wrong. and i do not believe that any view point that includes taking arms against someone is a valid view point.
i got to visit palestine this summer (and i’ve applied to a program that would allow me to live there and work with the palestinians to support them in their non-violent struggle against the occupation) and see the occupation first hand. i had israeli defense forces pointing their guns at me during a non-violent protest against the wall, i walked through 3 checkpoints in order to go worship God on the Muslim side of the tomb of the patriarchs / ibrahimi mosque, i spent the night in a refugee camp. i saw and for 10 days lived in a conflict zone. i came to see that although i understand why the palestinians take up arms against the israeli’s and why then the israeli’s take up arms against the palestinians, my beliefs about putting those arms down and what a HUGE difference that can make in people’s lives was only strengthened.
this country is no safer because of your friend, in fact i would say it is LESS safe. it’s time that we all - me included because goodness knows this response is being written in anger at your hypocrisy - truly act as jesus did. my pastor recently preached about peace and this is what he said about christ’s example:
“When push comes to shove, and the only worldly alternative is to use violence (properly justified by the evidence of course), Jesus does indeed die by the sword, but not because he picks one up. Even when faced with a painful, humiliating death, like a lamb he emphatically refuses to pick up that sword.”
further, a friend of mine who is a pastor in canada was preaching on 2 Kings chapter 6 (The Lord opened their eyes, and they saw that they were inside Samaria. When the king of Israel saw them he said to Elisha, ‘Father, shall I kill them? Shall I kill them?’ He answered, ‘No! Did you capture with your sword and your bow those whom you want to kill? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink; and let them go to their master.’ So he prepared for them a great feast; after they ate and drank, he sent them on their way, and they went to their master. And the Arameans no longer came raiding into the land of Israel.) and one thing he said about this was:
“The things that make for peace is practicing a radical form of hospitality.”
and lastly, in preaching about a trip to israel, pastor dan bryant, of the first christian church of eugene, oregon said this:
“Like Jesus, we should be greatly disturbed in spirit that so many are needlessly dying while war profiteers make millions on the weapons that do the killing. To believe in Jesus as the resurrection and life means that we do not accept this way of the world. We do not accept this way of violence, of retaliation, of revenge killings. We refuse, however, to turn our anger into hatred. We do not stand at the tomb of Lazarus and ask “Who is responsible for this death?” that we might seek revenge. No, we stand at the tomb of Lazarus and ask “How do we remove the stone?”. How do we let loose life and hope into our world, that death will not have the last word. We believe that there is an alternative to an ‘eye for an eye’ and a ‘tooth for a tooth’ that is found in each of our traditions. Life, greater than death. Love, stronger than hate. Compassion, justice, and affirmation for our common humanity is the way of peace, and the will of God for our world. May it be, for the sake of the children, and for us all.”
no, these aren’t mormon words, because it is unlikely you will find these kinds of things being said in a talk in the LDS church. but they are words of men of God, men who have truly committed themselves to peace and understanding what christ wants for all of us. i think jay bybee needs to do some soul searching - the same kind that i personally know that 2 of these 3 men have done - and praying about his actions. then maybe, just maybe, he’ll understand the kind of suffering that his actions have submitted people to, and maybe, just maybe, he’ll ask for forgiveness for his actions and do everything he can to fix it.
oh - and one quick thing - i want to point out that that dan bryant quote was said just after the murder of 8 children in a jerusalem yeshiva in march, which happened just a few days after his return from palestine / israel. a side note is that i was privileged enough to meet the mother of one of those children while i was in palestine.
Brooke,
Your quote “…all dedicated to non-violence. at some point people like me have to say to people who believe in war that they are wrong. and i do not believe that any view point that includes taking arms against someone is a valid view point.”
I wish this world was so simple as to be able to make that claim. Wouldn’t it have been great if Britain just left the Colonies because they were asked? Wouldn’t have been wonderful if the slave owners of the south just gave up their slaves with out the need for succession from the union for their claim to own slaves.
I hate war! I hate what is does to individuals and families. I hate what is does to a country. However, I do believe there are some causes that are more important to stop, then to let it continue. Slavery is one. Stopping Hitler from Genocide is another. Defense of our freedom is another one.
Be careful when quoting the Bible, the Old Testament is filled with commandments from the Lord to destroy cities and people including women and children.
Brooke, I hope we all pray for peace, and pray that the leaders of countries will soften their hearts and their minds can be changed so there is no need for war.
They who hate war will never have peace. Only those who love peace will have peace.
Britian left this colony because we asked.
We live in a world where gentle people sleep at night because rough people stand ready to do violence on our behalf. In this society those people are now police where in the past they were soldiers. The fact is that now war means the utter destruction of society and that is not a solution for anybody but a band of criminals led from the caves of Afghanistan.
Society is perched on a blade of war. I am compelled to realize now that I must renounce war. I believe that when Jesus said to love my enemies he meant that I don’t kill them either.
Anyone who believes that water boarding isn’t torture should have no problem with having it done to themselves.